[00:00:19] Speaker A: Hi all.
[00:00:20] Speaker B: Welcome back to just a bite. It's Sarah Coons, your just a bite host and the advocacy and engagement manager at the Ohio association of Food Banks. You may be wondering, why do food banks care about sustainable revenue?
Why are they concerned about policy proposals that eliminate taxes like the state income tax? And why are they supportive of targeted tax relief for families with low to moderate incomes?
Well, simply put, the tax code can exacerbate inequality, poverty, and food insecurity. The good thing is that the tax code could also alleviate some of the inequality and poverty we see if policymakers implement policies that provide relief to Ohioans with low to moderate incomes while also making sure that folks with wealth are paying their fair share.
We also know that sustainable revenue means sustainable public goods like schools, libraries, infrastructure, and a strong safety net. I'm excited for you to learn more about the solutions that Ohio should make to their tax code from Bailey Williams at policy matters Ohio and for you to learn more about how these solutions, specifically the child tax credit, supported families and practice from Benesha Wright.
Take a listen.
[00:01:58] Speaker A: Hi Bailey. Thanks so much for talking to me about all this buzz around tax policy on both the state and federal level. PMO has been a real leader in sharing their analysis on all the recent tax policy proposals and their impact. I would love if you could introduce yourself to the listeners. How did you get into this work?
[00:02:20] Speaker C: Thanks, Sarah. I'm really glad to be here. Appreciate the invite. Happy to talk about taxes. So, my name is Bailey Williams. I'm a tax policy researcher with policy matters Ohio. I'm a lifelong Ohioan. I was born and raised in the Dayton area, a small city called Troy, a bit north of there.
Went to Ohio University for undergrad, UC for law school.
I got into this work because I've always believed in the power of good public policy and being able to advocate for sound policy that is inclusive of all Ohioans, not just the rich and wealthy well off, but advocating for policies that will help them help their families, working class families. Like I came from, my mother's a nurse, my father's electrician. So I sympathize and identify with working class families a lot. And being able to be in a position to advocate for those families in my professional career, especially in Ohio, is what I look forward to. And then this position with policy matters came open. As a tax policy researcher in law school, I was able to focus quite a bit on different tax policies and federal taxation. So this was kind of right up my alley. And being able to advocate for Ohioans is exactly what I'm able to do, and I love doing it every day.
[00:03:37] Speaker A: That's awesome. I actually went to the University of Dayton, so I'm very familiar with the Dayton area, and it has quite a soft spot in my heart, for sure. So that's awesome.
We have covered child tax credits in the past a few times before on this podcast, including your former colleague will Petrich, talking about a proposal like this in 2022. It was really exciting to see that this policy proposal is finally being introduced into the state legislature. Rep. Weinstein and Rep. McNally had introduced the thriving Families tax credit in October of 2023. Can you explain what this proposal means in practice for families?
[00:04:23] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. So, thriving families tax credit included in HB 290. What it would do is it would provide a $1,000 refundable credit for families with children under the age of five. And for those children above that age, the parents would receive a credit of dollar 500. This is fully refundable. So it ensures that lower, moderate income Ohio and take full advantage families making up to $65,000 will receive the full value of the credit. It starts to phase out above that, all the way up to 85,000. But this is a really sound policy for including lower and moderate income families in on tax cuts. The average family, for Ohio families that received the Ryland Families tax credit, they would receive a tax cut, $1,000 on average, roughly about there. And all the 97% of the value of the entire value of this tax cut goes to the bottom 80% of Ohioans. That's in very stark contrast with broad scale income tax cuts that we've been seeing from the legislature, where most of those benefits go to the wealthy. So this is a very targeted tax relief that actually includes lower income Ohioans in on the relief. And it goes up over 1.4 million children in Ohio. Over 60%, or roughly 60% of all kids in Ohio. It's a very sound policy kids group. It's wide ranging, and it'll do a lot for families who really need it.
[00:05:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's staggering when you say it's 60% of kids like that is really capturing a huge portion of the state and would make a real meaningful difference. I want to talk a little bit about how this tax credit benefits black workers and other workers of color. Because of racism and structural inequity, black workers and other workers of color disproportionately have incomes in the bottom 20% of incomes, meaning that they would see a significant impact if the thriving families tax credit goes into effect, this would be one small step towards making Ohio's tax code more equitable. What impact would this have for black families and other families of color?
[00:06:34] Speaker C: So, as you said, black families, black Ohio families, and particularly teenage families in Ohio, are overrepresented at the bottom 20% of earners. Since this is a tax cut that targets those earners, those Ohioans, they would benefit quite a lot from this credit. 83%. Over 83% of black families would benefit and get some form of tax relief from this bill. And over 79% of latino families would also benefit. That's over 400,000 children of color in the state that would benefit from this tax cut.
A wide number of those children who were not included in tax cuts were broad scale income tax cuts. So this is actually one that benefits all worker or several majority workers of color in Ohio and their families. And like you said, it provides some more equitable tax code that includes them on tax relief to make sure that they actually benefit from some of these tax codes.
[00:07:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
You know, this bill requires a significant investment by the state. I don't think that we shouldn't do this because of that. Of course, I know that this investment would absolutely pay dividends and family well being and the alleviation of poverty. And it will also help families just prepare for unexpected expenses or allow them to take the next step, like going back to school or working towards buying a home. You know, in the next segment, we'll talked to Benisha Wright, who's a parent from the Columbus area, and she talks about how the child tax credit in 2021 really meant the difference between continuing to go down a path of credit card debt versus being able to pay that off and get out of that hole.
What would you say to folks who are worried about the price tag of this bill?
[00:08:36] Speaker C: I answer their question with another question I'd ask them. Were they concerned about the price tags of broad scale income tax cuts that we've been seeing in Ohio over the last two decades? And those tax cuts were mostly targeted towards the wealthy. Were they concerned about those price tags? We'll take, for example, the last budget, the income tax cuts in HB 33, the budget bill, 85% of more than $900 million in tax cuts went to the top 20% of earners. That $900 million in tax cuts is very close to the price tag for the Thrydon family's tax credit. So I asked our lawmakers, we always have money for these tax cuts for the wealthy. Why can't we include lower income Ohioans and their families in on this tax cut that actually goes towards them who actually benefit from them instead of just another handout to the wealthy. And let's actually invest in our families, making sure that they have the means to make their families thrive. So let's invest in them instead of just another tax cut for the wealthy.
[00:09:38] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. To your point about broad scale tax cuts for the wealthy, we have recently seen some really worrisome proposals to completely eliminate the state income tax, most recently in the past few months by Senator Lang and Senator Steve Huffman and Rep. Matthews and Rep. Lampton. As a network of direct service organizations that have public and private partnerships with the state, we have, of course, are increasingly worried about the slow elimination of the state income tax and other revenue supports.
We know that public goods that we all benefit from will no longer be as robust without a strong source of revenue.
Proposals so harmful. And why does eliminating the state income tax disproportionately benefit the wealthy?
[00:10:34] Speaker C: So this proposal should be a non starter in the legislature. It really should. The Ohio income tax has been cut, like I said, for previously, dramatically over the last two decades. Now this legislation is trying to finish it off and eliminate it outright. Last year, last fiscal year, the personal income tax brought in 10.5% billion dollars.
That is a little under half of our overall state tax revenue. So with this legislation proposing to eliminate that, that's going to obviously blow a $10 billion hole in our budget. Where are we going to, how are we going to offset that? That either comes in one way of either increased taxes in other areas, probably the sales tax, which, again, that's a terrible. That's a terrible idea because we're relying. The sales tax is a regressive form of taxation. It requires lower income Ohioans to pay more of their income in that tax than it does of the wealthy. The income tax takes into consideration your wealth and how much income you have. That's why higher wealthy or higher income Ohioans pay more than the tax. And of course, when we eliminate it, they get most of the benefit.
So when we, if we do go down this path, and I hopefully knock on wood that we don't, we either going to have to cut spending $10 billion in spending, so less money towards public education, less money towards environmental protections, less money towards Medicaid for low income mothers and their children, what are we going to decide that gets cut in there? Or which taxes are we going to increase? Which, again, that just leads to another handout for the wealthy while shifting more of the tax responsibility onto lower income Ohio ones.
[00:12:11] Speaker A: Shifting to the federal level. You know, there has been a bipartisan House passed tax package that includes an expansion of the federal child tax credit. You know, there was negotiations and concessions made. So there is some tax cuts for corporations and things like that. But overall, we are really excited to see an expansion of the child tax credit.
The Senate is holding that up currently with some disagreements around the bill's provisions. I was just curious, in your view, is this proposed expansion of the child tax credit as positive as the temporary expansion in 2021 and what is different about it?
[00:13:04] Speaker C: Yeah. So the temporary or the bipartisan legislation currently bending in the Senate now that's already passed the House, HR 7024, is called the Tax Relief for American Families and Workers act of 2024. The child tax credit that's in this is not as good as the temporary expansion in 2021, but it's a step in the right direction. So the current child tax credit and its iteration was, it's based off the child tax credit that was passed in the Tax Cut and Jobs act of 2017, formerly known as the Trump tax cuts, in that the child tax credit is worth $2,000 per child, of which only 1400 is refundable.
There's a $25,000 earned income requirement. So you have to have some type of earned income, some type of wage income to qualify for the full credit.
And the bigger, the biggest issue with it is that it expires just like the temporary one. It expires after 20.
So what this temporary expansion, HR 7024, does is that over time, it gradually makes the credit fully refundable. It knocks up that $1,400 all the way up to $2,000 by 2025. Also adjusting the credit for inflation, so making sure that inflation doesn't take away some of that purchasing power for families. And another sometimes overlooked provision of it is, it's called this look back provision. It allows filers to either choose their most recent income for the most recent tax year or the previous year when choosing which income to determine if they're eligible for the child tax credit. The reason this is important is because of that earned income requirement that I mentioned before. Let's take, for example, a new mother who just had a child, first time mother. They probably saw a loss of income from less work that they probably were able to do during that calendar year. That possibly drops them under that earned income requirement. So what this allows, this look, PAC provision allows mothers in these situations to take the previous year's income where they probably was higher, allows them to get the full value of the credit with their earned income and make sure that they have that money there for them and their child that year.
This is a great step in the right direction. It provides some expansion off a tax credit that is going to expire, but this is also a temporary fix. This only goes through 2025. So hopefully Congress gets this pass and doesn't feel like the job's done, wipe their hands a bit. They keep looking at it for a permanent solution and implementation of an expanded child tax credit.
[00:15:38] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. That's such a great explanation of the look back provision that I've been kind of grappling with. Cause I know that's part of the holdup in the Senate, of course, is that specific provision. I was wondering if you could explain to the listeners why refundability is so important. That's like, why we have been pushing the tax credit to be expanded in a lot of ways is because of that refundability piece.
[00:16:06] Speaker C: Right. So the difference between a non refundable credit and a refundable credit is whether or not you get the full value of it. If your tax liability is whatever your tax bill is, however much in taxes you owe, whatever, that's the difference between you get the full value. Take, for example, you have $500 in tax liability. You have $1,000 non refundable credit. Dollar 500 would cover the tax liability, but you don't get the rest of that dollar 500. If that credit was refundable, dollar 500 will cover your tax liability, and then you get the other $500 in a refund. This makes sure that lower earning Ohioans or tax filers in any situation gets the full value of the credit, as opposed to just cutting it off at some determined value based off their tax liability. So getting that refund, getting that money back to those who could benefit from it, ensures that they get the full value of it and can support their families in some way, in whatever way that they see fit.
[00:17:04] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
That's why it's so great. Is making sure that there's money back in your pocket really, for the credit that is entitled to you? Yeah, that's awesome.
Even though it is smaller in scope, I was curious. This current proposal is smaller in scope. What impact would this federal child tax credit have if it is passed?
[00:17:29] Speaker C: Yeah, so one of the changes that I didn't get into, there was a credit calculation formula, change in particular for parents with multiple children. Previous iteration had a cap on it that didn't take into consideration how many children you have. This one does. So it expands the value of the credit instead of capping it without determination on family size. Another portion is the look back provision that will ensure more families and more parents get the full value of the credit. They see an income decline.
According to the center on Budget and Policy Priorities, this credit will help 16 million children in the very first year when it's not fully expanded to. The refundability isn't fully expanded, but it'll still help 16 million children in the first year. And by 2025, we can expect to see half a million children being lifted out of poverty from this, expanded just from the, from the temp or from an expansion that is not as good as the 2021 version. It still does quite a bit for helping families in poverty.
[00:18:29] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm really hoping that this continues to move along and hopefully we will see an expanded child tax credit again. Well, thank you so much, Bailey. I was curious if there's anything that I missed today that you want to share.
[00:18:47] Speaker C: Thank you. I appreciate that. I just encourage listeners to contact their elected officials, both at the state and federal level, encouraging them to enact the thriving family tax credit at the state legislature and the expanded child tax credit in the Senate. I would encourage them to reach out to them and tell them what this credit would do for them and their families, similar to how it benefited Venetia. Do a lot for families, making sure that they can make ends meet a bit easier. And it's an investment that our lawmakers should be making for its citizens. I encourage folks to check out policy matters Ohio for further research. We're going to have some tax day releases as well. We're going to be highlighting a couple of tax policies there, including some touching the sales taxes and property taxes. And property taxes are an issue that a lot of people around Ohio are concerned about. We're proposing a solution that's inclusive of homeowners, of renters, of seniors, of those with income losses for people in gentrifying areas. Really a whole holistic, targeted solution for those who really need income relief or property tax relief proposing is called a circuit breaker. It's going to be introduced in the legislature very soon. I encourage people to check it out and encourage them to contact their lawmakers to support this measure.
[00:20:01] Speaker A: That's wonderful. Yeah, we'll be on the lookout for that.
Where can listeners find you and your work along with policy matters Ohio, I.
[00:20:11] Speaker C: Encourage people to check out policy matters Ohio
[email protected] dot. We post all of our research on our website. You can follow us on our social media. We're on Instagram. We're on Twitter. We're on LinkedIn. Follow us there. We share all of our research.
We connect with our coalition partners to make sure that our research can reach their constituencies that they serve and make sure that we can be as impactful as possible with our advocacy and with each follow and each share that people, people give us on social media. It helps us and we can make as much positive impact as possible.
[00:20:47] Speaker A: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Bailey, for talking with me today and kind of demystifying some of the recent tax policy proposals. I appreciate it.
Hi, Benisha. Thank you so much for coming to the studio today and talking a little bit about the thriving families tax credit and the recent bipartisan federal child tax credit proposal that is held up in the Senate currently. How are you?
[00:21:23] Speaker D: I'm well, thank you. It's great to be here today and just advocate on a very important issue that's affecting a lot of families in our community.
[00:21:33] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
For the listeners, Benesha has been an advocate that we've been working with for really the past three years now. I can't believe it's been so long.
I really want her to introduce herself, but she is a nonprofit professional mother, fiance, and student from the Columbus area. Related to what we're talking about today, Benesha spoke at a press conference in October 2023 to introduce the thriving families tax credit. She has shared what this tax credit may mean for Ohio families, including her own. Welcome, Benisha. Do you mind introducing yourselves to the listeners? In your own words, tell us a little bit about yourself and your life currently. I know you have so many big, exciting things happening on the horizon, so.
[00:22:23] Speaker B: I would love to hear.
[00:22:25] Speaker D: Oh, awesome. Thank you so very much for that warm welcome and invite. I think you did a very good job summarizing a lot of my passion for the work that I do. So a little bit about me. I grew up in the central Ohio area, short north area, a single mom household. It was six of us. Food was really how we communicated our love for one another and how we gathered around and had conversations around food, whether it be holiday, whether it be a birthday party or something in that sense. But we dealt with a lot of food scarcity, dealt with going to food pantries, getting, you know, packed lunches in the summertime, and all those things from local organizations such as got my guild association, who I currently work for. They're a non profit. So it's my way of giving back to the community. The same organization that served me and my family, I get to serve there and serve my community and give back in that essence in helping people, you know, giving them the skills and value that they need to thrive in our communities today. So, yes, I think a lot of my passion come from my upbringing and childhood. But as I grew up, I have a christian background. So I believe that you treat people how you want to be treated. I believe that you take care of your neighbors, you take care of your brothers and sisters. And I think it all comes full circle to why I'm here today.
[00:24:00] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. What a full circle moment. And I loved your point about when you talked about food being like a symbol of love.
It's such an act of service to provide food or provide a meal to your family. And I just love that that was such a core part of your childhood and upbringing and that you are kind of passing the torch along with your children and your fiance and almost husband. And that's just really awesome to see.
[00:24:32] Speaker D: Yes, thank you. And I love that you mentioned passing the church because me and my soon to be husband comes from different worlds. And we know that, you know, with the price of inflation and everything affecting, you know, we really are penny pension for our wedding to make it happen, make it a special moment for us. But I would say one of the biggest disputes is the food, you know, and so we're looking at ways to cut back on the food and possibly have people bring some items or donate to us in that capacity because we both grew up where food was kind of like the center of our love because our family didn't have enough resources to go out and buy, you know, hundred dollar gifts or even $20 gifts at time, you know, I know dollar tree and we have things like that around and some people might look at it like, oh, well, they can just go to dollar tree in the dollar store. But when you don't have transportation or don't have a babysitter and things of that nature, it kind of, you know, you don't have the resources really to get there and you're going to end up spending the $20 that you don't have just to go there and get that $1.25 gift.
[00:25:49] Speaker A: So, yeah, absolutely.
I love you bringing it back to inflation and how things have been for a lot of families, really difficult, especially over the past couple years.
It has really been difficult to make ends meet and you have utilized public benefit programs and food pantries to feed your family, especially with growing kids. I know that especially, you know, you have teenager and he is absolutely, I'm sure, eating through the pantry.
[00:26:25] Speaker D: Everything, everything. And it's funny because it's like, I do inventory, and I'm like, I thought I had.
[00:26:31] Speaker A: I'm like, what?
[00:26:35] Speaker D: I don't put it on my grocery list because when I last checked the fridge, it was there. And then I'm like, I get back home, I'm like, I'm looking for this, for this meal that I'm making, and we don't have it.
[00:26:48] Speaker A: Can you talk a little bit about how the monthly child tax credit in 2021 helped you and your family?
What did you use that tax credit payment for each month? You know, I'm just curious. You know, a lot of people used it on food or other basic needs, but I've also heard other people say, you know, it helped me pay down debt or helped me, you know, paid for a down payment for my home. So I'm just curious what you were able to use it for, if you remember.
[00:27:20] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:27:20] Speaker D: Fortunately, I was still working at that time, and fortunately, I was able to use that to, like, help pay down debt. And it's more credit card debt because I kind of borrow from those to keep up with monthly expenses, unfortunately. And so helping to pay down that credit card debt. And luckily, at that time, I felt like our leaders, our local leaders did hear us and they did fill us, and they were able to give extra food benefits at that time. So I didn't have to spend that on food. I was able to spend that on other items that my family needed. And I think it's really important to acknowledge that because as soon as the pandemic hit, inflation rose and the price of everything skyrocketed, and then even the grocery store hours and places that we generally go, those hours changed. And so now you have to change your whole life and the way that you go and get things. I started utilizing delivery services and other means to get the things that my family needed, which cost a little more than just, you know, if I was able to go to the grocery store myself. But most of the time when I get off, it will be closed because they change their hours. And it's like, I don't have enough hours in a day to get everything done. So I think it. I mean, it was very impactful for me. It gave me a sense of, you know, even though we were in a crisis at the time because of COVID and everything, the jobs not being available, a lot of layoffs, unemployment rates high.
I think that extra push and that extra money back in our pockets really made me feel I was comfortable, in a sense, where I wasn't afraid or I wasn't, you know, my anxiety wasn't high, you know, because of the pandemic. I felt like I had everything that I needed. Even though I was stuck in a house half the time, I still had everything that I needed. Now fast forward to today. That's another conversation, which I think we'll touch on that a little later.
[00:29:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I know it's kind of ironic that during a pandemic, it was hard for so many people, of course, and we can't discount that, as you talked about. But a lot of people who were struggling before the pandemic felt like finally, when the pandemic hit and there was extra snap benefits and this child tax credit was being paid out to families, they finally felt like, I can breathe a little bit finally.
And it's kind of ironic that during such a crises, you were able to have a little bit of wiggle room. It's kind of strange when you think about it.
[00:30:17] Speaker D: Yes. Kind of like bittersweet, right? You know, it was good for us, you know, in the sense that we had everything we needed, you know, but still fearing, you know, COVID and what that may look like for some of us, you know, people unfortunately passing away due to it, you know, and dealing with that grief and not being able to have support in other ways. I think having that extra boost of cash really helped. And even the food benefits.
[00:30:47] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. And I think it's also, like, such a testament to the need for multiple programs being funded adequately. Like, because you had extra snap benefits, you were then also able to use that child tax credit for other things that, like, moved you to the next step. You know, like, so it's such an important point that all of these programs need to be funded and funded adequately and to be accessible for families in order for, you know, things to really work and people to actually feel like, you know, they're able to get by. And not just get by, but also thrive, you know?
[00:31:36] Speaker D: I agree. I agree.
I just want to, you know, really hone in on some of the things that you were saying because resource wise, you know, everyone don't have that support system. And, you know, the government really giving us that back. We really felt hurt. We felt empowered. You know, I know myself, you know, I was able to reach a higher credit score, which, you know, really awesome, opened up different doors for me. And I think, you know, when we're thinking of self sufficiency, we need to move in that direction. It just can't be, you know, don't give me any resources and figure this out on your own. You know, I need for you to come to the table with me and, you know, invest in me. You know, you're going to get your investment back once I enter the workforce. But I, you know, I need that door open and I need that chance.
[00:32:31] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. And, you know, when we really invest in people and invest in families, like that is good for all of society and all, like the whole community, when we all have the basic needs we need. So your words during the press conference back in October 2023 were really so illustrative of the need for a tax credit, like the thriving families tax credit that Bailey from policy matters, Ohio, kind of walked us through.
And I actually went back and listened to your remarks. You said, quote, when we don't have rich soil and are planted in bad soil, we're always in survival mode.
I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that and how, how can the state really ensure that families are able to make ends meet and get out of the survival mode that so many families are in? I know we talked about that a little bit with the last question, but I'm curious if you have any more thoughts about that.
[00:33:37] Speaker D: Yes. Thank you for posing that. And I love reflecting back on that press conference and just getting the word out there about the tax credit that was going up.
So one of the things that really, as I already said, I'm a Christian and I'm very strong in religion and faith, but also, you know, like I said, just loving on people in the community. So when I look around in my community, when I think of, you know, being planted in good soil, I'm looking at resources like for plants they have, you know, if they're in good soil, that means that they have all the nutrients in that soil to survive. And what's missing from our communities is the nutrients, you know, and those are the resources, those agencies, you know, funded by government and, you know, other entities where we could reach out to or be planted in our community for us to, you know, kind of pool from those resources. So, you know, we're not in good soil right now. And I think this conversation is imperative for us to all recognize that we're not in soil, in the soil that we want to be in and think of how we get there. You know, I know for our leaders and officials and, you know, political, all of those leaders, all of those in office right now, you know, I know they go back and forth about budgets and, you know, what should they fund and what shouldn't they fund? And I don't think, you know, providing resources for the basic needs should be, you know, one of those arguments that they get into.
I feel like basic needs, needs such as food and housing and things of that nature that we all need for pure survival should not be a debate.
[00:35:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:35:44] Speaker D: It's a right and it's a right. And when you don't give it to us, you're taking our dignity away. You know, I don't feel heard. I don't feel valued. How do I show up at work, you know, as a valuable team player? Player, when I don't feel value?
[00:36:01] Speaker A: Right.
For sure. Yeah, no, it's absolutely all about dignity and making sure that people are provided for. I mean, that's really what really the goal of government should be.
I wrote down when you said planet in community, which I love, I actually got chills when you said that because I think that's so important. We're so individualistic in this country.
I'm gonna get on my soapbox. But I think, you know, the need to care about your brothers and sisters, care about your community members is so important to really understanding all that you're talking about when it comes to making sure that we're not debating whether or not people should eat or not. You know what I mean?
[00:36:55] Speaker D: I agree, I agree.
I think we all, a majority of us can agree on that. That's not a debate now. It's just getting everyone to see that because unfortunately, we all don't live in the same community. However, we all experience inflation in some way, form or fashion. And I think that we are more relatable than unrelatable.
And a lot of the things that we battle and fight over. So when looking at things, hindsight is just like, I don't think any of us taxpayers would say, no, I don't want to pay more taxes so that my neighbor or a child can eat right. You know, I don't. I don't think, you know, because honestly, I mean, we're paying taxes on everything, you know, so I think we do have a say so on, you know, how we want that money to be spent. And I think that, you know, having food in the fridge when someone get home from a four days work where they already paid taxes, mind you, you know, taxes are out of our paycheck before we even receive our paycheck.
So it's kind of like, can we just give back and let those dollars recycle in that way where it's not a fight of, oh, well, I'm not going to vote yes for that improved tax levy, because it's not benefiting me where you make it, where it benefits everyone. And you're not fighting to get that. Yes.
[00:38:42] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, absolutely.
I really also loved this quote during the press conference when you said, quote, as soon as we get this mere taste of freedom or achievement, we are knocked down by situational things, whether it be a car breaking down, whether it be providing basic medical needs. Someone gets sick, unquote.
As you know, life does not stop. And it is really difficult to get ahead or even stay afloat if something happens that was unexpected or wasn't planned for. I think we can all relate to that.
And when you are paycheck to paycheck, you really don't have the room to save or prepare for the unexpected. So I was just curious if you could talk a little bit more about how a tax credit would support families prepare for the unexpected.
[00:39:41] Speaker D: I can reflect back on, you know, 2021. When we received that tax credit, all my bills was paid on time. You know, my car note was paid on time. I had food in the fridge, you know, I was able to afford gifts for my children and things, you know, that just helped us live and thrive. I was able to pay my credit card debts, you know, and increase my credit score. Now fast forward, you know, to today. Without that tax credit, although I'm working, reach a higher income bracket, guess what? I have more expenses. You know, they take away, you know, your benefits. Slowly but shortly, they took away my snap benefits, so I don't get any food assistance anymore. You know, I was on section eight housing. I'm no longer on that because I felt that it was a feat and a purpose. Because what section eight said is, because your income, we're going to raise your rent, your portion, $1,500. Well, if I'm going to pay $1,500, I might as well pay fair market rent and give that to someone who needs it, because it's not empowering to say, oh, you're gonna pay $1,500. And I went back and forth because a lot of people were like, oh, well, you should just save it for rainy days. Save what for rainy days?
You know, because the mindset is when things get hard, say if you lose your job operating in fear, a lot of people in public benefits operate in fear. I don't want to reach a new income bracket, because if I do, then I'm going to have to worry about how to get these things that I haven't been able to save up for. So now it's like, I pay for health care for myself. Thankfully, I'm still eligible to get it for my children. I get childcare for my children. But of course, my co pay went up. So it's kind of like a give and take. So it's like you make more money, but are you really seeing more money?
[00:41:47] Speaker A: Right, exactly.
[00:41:48] Speaker D: You know, and your expenses increase, though, so, you know, really bringing that into hindsight because I don't know what formulas use or what conversation takes place, you know, when they figure out the formulas and, you know, the money, you know, to figure out what's 200% poverty and 150% poverty and 100% poverty. I don't even, there's not even any continuity in the programs in that essence, because I feel like if you qualify for one program, you should qualify for all, they're all basic needs, food, healthcare and housing.
[00:42:28] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:42:28] Speaker D: Why did I qualify for section eight but not for snap?
[00:42:34] Speaker A: Right, exactly. Or, like, qualifying for WIC or food banks but not qualifying for snap.
[00:42:42] Speaker D: Correct.
Like, for me, it's a catch 22. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't say that we understand the need and that we support it because now there's a need, but it's not being met.
[00:42:55] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. And that also doesn't even cover all the hoops that you have to jump through in order to apply for these benefits or to keep them. Like, I think, you know, maybe there's some general understanding of, like, you know, there's a really intense application process for Snap, for example. Maybe people understand that, but you also then have to continue to prove that you are eligible for these programs. And it's demoralizing. And, you know, going back to that dignity piece, like, it's just not always dignified.
[00:43:33] Speaker D: It is very demoralizing. And I don't feel like they don't trust our word. They don't trust what we say, what we do. And it's kind of like, it really hinders that relationship with those parties. Because when you're questioned everything, when I presented everything to you and that's coming into question, and then we're judged by what we present to you, there's no, like, oh, I understand now you're paying, you know, $1,500 rent or, you know, $2,000 mortgage, but you only receive net pay of $4,500 a month. And you, out of that, you're expected to buy food, you know, pay for childcare and pay for, you know, any other things, gas, pay your utilities, cell phone, Internet, whatever it is. You know, everything is expected to come out of that. You know, net pay and on paper you have that. I make 4500 a month. In reality, I'm not getting all that, you know, because before I even get my check, there's about $500 already knocked out in taxes and then if I have any benefits with my employer. 401K is very important for planning for this future. Unfortunately, I have to debate if I can afford a 401K or do I just want to get healthcare, you know, and, you know, it's just not something that we should have to fight for. It's not something that we should have to jump hoops for. You know, the government, you have access to all of our information. You issued our social, you issued our birth certificates, you know, for people coming to the country. You collect that information during your immigration process, you know, for their visas.
[00:45:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:36] Speaker D: So it's not like that information isn't at hand. So I will challenge them to definitely reach out to their systems and improve their databases and how they communicate.
Because if you have access to my tax returns, then you know how much money I make. You know, it's required for you to file your tax returns.
[00:46:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:46:03] Speaker D: So sometimes I feel like they're looking for the bad guy in everybody.
You know, when we have that support, it really puts us in an environment where we can to see where we can, you know, when we feel empowered to go and work where you're not bombarded or you're not, you know, mental health is very, very high in the US and part of it is anxiety, anxiety and worry over how am I going to pay these bills and get food on the table and meet these basic needs. You know, it takes away from the dignity of the people. And then when, you know, you say that these benefits aren't available or, you know, okay, well, you got to provide us XYZ, but you have to provide it in a certain time frame, you know, but by the way, we have 30 days to process your paperwork, but you have to give it to us in five to ten days. You know, it's like there's no respective time there. You know, we get leeway because we're short of staff and so, you know, we want to be able to process it in time in a timely manner. But there's no leeway for the participant because I think those timeframes should mirror each other. If you have 30 days of processing, maybe I should have 30 days to get my social to get to you because that's a long process. Or maybe I should have 30 days to come up with all this paperwork because people have crisis, you know, when you're homeless, you lose most of your documents.
[00:47:40] Speaker A: Right, exactly.
[00:47:43] Speaker D: And then when you're busy and your life is chaotic and, you know, you're dealing with anxiety, depression, depression and other things, your focal point isn't, you know, safekeeping these documents.
[00:47:56] Speaker A: Right.
[00:47:57] Speaker D: Your focal point is getting out of that situation so that you can, you know, thrive and just live life and enjoy life.
I can say, you know, even though I'm not in the same place that I was, you know, many years ago, I can't say that I'm enjoying life to the fullest. You know, I can't enjoy life to the fullest when I see my kids and grandkids struggle. You know, I can't enjoy life to the fullest when I'm serving at work. And there's so many people with language barriers, with no resources are people, you know, with less than 9th grade education, less than high school education, and, you know, they're having a hard time to get the jobs or even the skills to get a job.
A lot of people, you know, discredit the Clinton administration, and they were all for, like, oh, welfare reform because it's like, oh, we don't want to put all this money into this because it's not working the way that we intend it. Well, maybe the way that you intended it to work was a little unrealistic, you know, because I'm not giving a speech secondhand based off of what my mom did or what I saw from someone else. I'm giving the story off a lived experience. And so I would challenge the politicians and lawmakers and those who are in the position of power to look within. Do you have that lived experience? And if you don't go to the people with the resources and the knowledge.
[00:49:31] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:49:32] Speaker D: Who can shed light on that experience instead of assuming, oh, these people just want to sit around and be lazy, you know, because even on Saturday morning, my parents had me up cleaning.
Exactly. So, you know, it's not in my nature to be lazy.
[00:49:49] Speaker A: No.
[00:49:52] Speaker D: But when you tell somebody, oh, if you make $0.10 over the threshold, the break that I get from moving forward from one income bracket to another, like, it was like, I do recertification is what they call it for the benefits. And now it's like reapplying where you're providing all this information over, you know, and I give them that, and next thing I know, I receive a letter in the mail and it's like, oh, we're sorry, you know, you no longer qualify for Medicaid. The people affected are, you know, of course, my name, you know, but, you know, these people are still eligible, by the way. You have until February 29 not even, you know, any leeway, really, to, you know, plan for the unexpected or even re budget, you know, or think. So I'm like, do I need to get another job? You know, or what do I need to do? But getting another job is going to do what? Boost my income and then even add more expenses because then by then, my children won't qualify. I might not get title 20. So now I'm paying the whole $300 a week per child. It really has to be more conversations like the one that we're having. And I really, you know, my pull to the people in the community is really to step up and speak out your truth and then, you know, stop, you know, segregating and taking sides when it comes to going to the voting pros. You know, don't vote just because you heard vote based off of who has the best interest of your community.
[00:51:35] Speaker A: So well said.
I know that you have talked a lot about the benefits cliff and how benefit programs can better support working families.
You know, you have lived it. But I also know throughout your professional experience with the Godman Guild, you see that firsthand, of course, you know, talking about how benefit programs can better support working families that are on the top end of that income. Eligibility for programs like SNAP or WIC or even publicly funded childcare or Medicaid as well. A tax credit like this might be one of the only programs, unfortunately, available for working families at a certain income level when they still, of course, need the help and are balancing. Do I take this raise or do I not and still keep my benefits? Like, what is the cost analysis here?
I was just curious if you could talk a little bit about how tax credit could support a family's basic needs like food, housing and utilities, and also talk a little bit more about that, you know, benefits cliff that we're seeing so much buzz around because it is, of course, important making sure that families on the top end of that income threshold for programs are really getting the support that they need as well.
[00:53:06] Speaker D: And I really, really love that you highlighted that specific group of individuals because, you know, for me, it's like, hmm, do I need to go and get another job or do I just not take a raise? And unfortunately, you know, I had HR and other places say that people didn't take raises and decline raises because of this very cliff that we're talking about.
And I do think a child tax credit will help in that because at least you're not throwing me out without any resources.
At least I know that I'm able to survive and thrive.
Right now, we're just focused on surviving. We can't even get to even wrap our mind around thriving.
[00:53:55] Speaker A: Right.
[00:53:56] Speaker D: But, you know, that's what we all aspire to be is, you know, in thriving communities. You know, which is why, you know, the tax credit initiative was, what, thriving families. Because it's not surviving families.
[00:54:09] Speaker A: Right.
[00:54:10] Speaker D: You know, we want to thrive and, you know, and we saw what the tax credit did back in 2021. How many. The poverty rate dropping. You know, and here's the thing. You know, I don't get why there's so many, you know, infrastructures around these resources and these funding streams. Because Snap, we know that you can buy anything with Snap but food. And I'm gonna just play the devil's advocate here, you know, for those who are looking for, oh, well, people sell their snap happen, and people defraud the system. Okay. Even if you. Even if someone stole their benefits, they still can't be used for anything but food.
It's not like it's taken away from the food industry.
WIC can't be used for anything but what that. What prescription is for.
If you don't have those benefits uploaded, you can't buy it.
[00:55:19] Speaker A: Mm hmm.
[00:55:21] Speaker D: So it's not like people are going paying their rent with Snap and Wick, because they're not. It's not cash, it's not monetary. Now, now, in the funding stream, yes, is real money, but when it gets to us, it's in coupon form and it tells you you only can get XYZ with it. You can't buy hot food with Snap.
I mean, this is going back into the economy with the money that they gave us, the child tax credit that we all received in 2021, that went back to an economy, whether people bought shoes with it. Guess what? It's fueling our economy is making sure that we have, you know, warehouse workers. Right. Amazon. You know, a lot of people were ordering from Amazon and, you know, online merchants and platforms because what, the stores were closing early, and even today, half of the stores still didn't go back to normal hours because they found out what their sales increased and not decreased. So why am I paying for another person to be here and staff during hours that really aren't needed?
[00:56:41] Speaker A: Right.
[00:56:42] Speaker D: So, you know, I think we can do things much smarter and wiser, but I really think it starts at, you know, our local level and then it moves up to a higher conversation.
[00:56:56] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And to your point about Snap benefits, I think people misunderstand, like, how much money we're actually talking about.
We just recently looked and the average snap monthly benefit is $199. I mean, really, that's not adequate whatsoever for a family, but that is really the money that we're talking about. And of course, course is a lifeline for families, but really isn't adequate for, you know, for families at all. I mean, yeah, I think that there.
[00:57:35] Speaker D: Should be a minimum amount that is given per family. And I think even along that line, like kids go to school and they're given a meal.
Right. You know, of course, you know, based on income, you might have to pay a little bit. I just think our kids are entitled to a meal. You know, why should I have to pay, you know, school when you're already getting funding, you know, to produce certain things and to provide certain things. I'm already, I'm already buying school supplies. I remember when I started school in kindergarten, my mom, she sent me with a book bag I didn't have, you know, they had crayons and all that stuff at school. Yeah, crayons with the little glitter in it, stuff like that. You know, they had these resources at school.
[00:58:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:58:30] Speaker D: So it's like, when do we say, hey, we're going to give these things back to you and then allow people to focus on what they need to focus on because we can't solve the school system issues, we can't solve the welfare issues and then also manage our households.
[00:58:52] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure.
[00:58:54] Speaker A: And you shouldn't have to, like, if you have.
[00:58:56] Speaker D: And then also work our jobs. Right, exactly. So it's like, you know. No, yeah. Now is the time that I need everyone to do what they get paid to do.
We put you in this position to do that. Now for you, it might just be, you know, a check off of your list of achievement or a resume builder for us. No, you're messing with our livelihood.
So I think, you know, the biggest thing, I'm not saying don't be ambitious. I'm not saying saying don't have a goal for yourself or any of that. But when that ambition and go overshadows the need of the community, then it becomes a problem.
When you being in office or you being in a position of power is all about you and what you want, then there's a problem because we hired you based off of what you said you were going to do for us, not for you.
[00:59:59] Speaker A: I was wondering if there's anything else that you would like to share that I didn't cover today. I feel like we talked about so many topics, and it was so great to talk to you about all of these things. But just curious if there's anything else you want to share. I feel like that was such a great ending moment, but would love to hear anything.
[01:00:18] Speaker D: Honestly, I don't have anything else to share. And I just want to pass the torch to our listeners and I want to empower them, them to, you know, let their voice be heard because it's not enough just for my voice to be heard because I'm one in millions. You know, there's millions like me. And if they don't hear you, they don't see you, then it's not a problem. You know, I don't want to be the squeaky wheel, per se, but I will be if, if that's what it takes for change to, you know, to speak, spark the energy for change. So I want to empower everyone who's listening, who's passionate about their community, you know, and who really want to see us thrive, to really, you know, think about, you know, and challenge, you know, our leaders in their thought process and in their budgeting, you know, the way that we, we are challenged.
[01:01:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Benisha, for your time today and talking about all of these topics with me. I just really appreciate it and I'm just so grateful for, you know, our friendship and partnership over the past couple years and excited to see how it, how it grows.
[01:01:33] Speaker D: Likewise. And I will be back anytime. Again, it's a, it's near and dear to my heart and thank you for having me. And again, audience, thank you for allowing us to just shed light on this issue and tuning in with us.
[01:01:48] Speaker A: Thank you.
[01:01:59] Speaker B: Thanks for listening to this just a bite episode. All the reports and articles mentioned will be linked in the show notes. I'm sure after hearing these experts, you are ready to take action to make sure that positive tax policy is implemented here in Ohio. We understand that the child tax credit payments in 2021 were a lifeline for families because of the direct impact the CTC had on Ohio families. We need your help to make the case on both the state and federal level that these tax credits need to be passed. If you have a child tax credit story you would like to share, please check out the form linked in the show notes. You may also email your us senators to let them know that they should pass the bipartisan tax package that includes the CTC expansion. Thanks for listening and we will talk to you next month.
